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Title
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From Those Who Lived It
Description
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Project video
Creator
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James C. Wright
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Office of Archives and Records
Date
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April 27, 2021
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Alice Bailey, Bettye Middlebrooks, Sister Donna Banfield, and Father Robert Chaney
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Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
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mp4, 100MB
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English
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Immaculate Conception, 1909-1971
Description
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The Society of African Missions founded Immaculate Conception Parish and Academy in 1909 to serve African Americans. The diocese decided to close the academy in Spring of 1967 due to low enrollment. High school students were absorbed by neighboring schools including Aquinas High School. The parish closed in 1971 and merged with Sacred Heart Parish and St. Patrick’s Parish to form Most Holy Trinity Parish. Immaculate parish and school were part of the diocese’s forced desegregation plan.
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PDF Text
Text
Oral Memoirs
of
Alice Marcella Bailey
St. Peter Claver, Macon
An Interview
Conducted by
Bettye Middlebrooks &
Katy Lockard
on
July 24, 2019
Accession: 20190724.02
Community Elders, Black Catholic Oral History Project
Archives & Records Management Department,
Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Copyright 2019
�This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute
copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in
the US copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that
allowed by fair use requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
ii
�Table of Contents
General Policy and Purposes......................................................................................... iv
Oral History Procedure ................................................................................................. iv
Legal Status ................................................................................................................... iv
Interview History ............................................................................................................v
Collection/Project Detail ................................................................................................v
Interview Transcript, 7/24/2019 ................................................................................... 1
iii
�General Policies and Procedures
A member of the Oral History Association, the Archives & Records Management Department of the
Catholic Diocese of Savannah (A&R) supports and embodies the goals, guidelines, and standards of
archival quality prescribed by the national professional association to ensure long-term preservation
of memoirs. It is the practice of A&R to select narrators whose recollections, as participants or
eyewitnesses, are relevant to the department’s chosen research topics. Their recorded memoirs
provide links between the immediate past and the present in a very human way. A scholarly but
relaxed and conversational atmosphere exists during the interview. To encourage completely
candid recollections, the narrator is asked to regard the oral history memoir as a highly personal
journal. The transcribed historical document, which the finished memoir becomes, is the raw
material used by historians and professional scholars.
In the interest of preserving these memories for future use, the narrator and interviewer must sign
a deed of gift agreement. Generally, this releases their portions of the interview to the oral history
archives of Catholic Diocese of Savannah for historical and academic research and public
dissemination. The narrator may also choose to restrict the memoir by limiting access or by sealing
the memoir until a specified date.
Oral History Procedure
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Initial contact with the narrator.
Arrangements made for interview(s).
Recording of interview(s).
Transcribing of recording(s) in the A&R office.
Audit-checking and editing of transcript(s) in the A&R office. Abstract(s) created.
Review of transcript(s) by interviewer.
Review of transcript(s) by narrator. Due to edits requested, transcript(s) may not match
audio recording(s) exactly.
8. Upload of draft transcript(s) and recording(s) to A&R’s web portal.
9. Presentation of bound copy of completed oral history to the interviewee.
Legal Status
Scholarly use of the recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) with Alice Marcella Bailey is
unrestricted. The deed of gift agreement was signed on November 9, 2020.
iv
�Interview History
The recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) were processed in the offices of the Archives
& Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Savannah, Georgia.
Interviewer:
Bettye Middlebrooks
Transcriber:
Trint.com
Editor:
Katy Lockard
Final editor:
Stephanie Braddy
Collection/Project Detail
The Diocese of Savannah is collecting oral histories from members of the Black Catholic community
to fill in gaps in the documentation.
Alice Marcella Bailey, 77, was born in Macon, Georgia to Hattie Lorene Costella Oliver Bailey (d.
1962) and Horace Bailey (d. 1965), the middle of three children. She attended St. Peter Claver
Catholic School and [Old] Ballard High School (later named Ballard-Hudson Senior High School) in
Macon, GA. She went on to Xavier University, where she earned a B.A. in economics and history
in 1963. She also holds certificates from Boston College, University of Penn., NYU School of
continuing education, Macon State College, and AARP. She is retired from Independence Blue
Cross (IBC) of Philadelphia, PA where she served as Communications Director. She also worked in
the Philadelphia Family Court, Westinghouse Broadcasting, and as a career development
counselor for the City of Macon. She continues to volunteer in the community.
Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA and a member
of the Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
v
�Interview Transcript
KLockard OK so to begin would you please state your name and spell it for us?
ABailey My name is Alice Marcella Bailey. A L I C E and Bailey, B as in boy A I L E Y. The middle
name, Marcella, M A R C E L L A, is the result of my mother's relationship with Sister and later
Mother Marcella, who was a nun and then the principal of St. Peter Claver. In, I guess, the thirties,
the nineteen thirties.
BMiddlebrooks Ok Alice, thank you for agreeing to interview with us and tell us your memories of
St. Peter Claver. So, can you go back as far as you can and start?
ABailey Oh yes. Yes, actually I can go back to St. Peter Claver when I was a little girl before
[00:01:00] going to kindergarten. Miss Mary Davis was my first teacher here in kindergarten, but
we come to Mass here [in the church] and sit in the front. Children sat in the first two rows on
either side of the altar which I think is the best place for them to see and to learn and of course
practice what they've learned in the Mass. So we would come here every Sunday for--for church
and I remember that so well because as a little girl I had a chance to sit in the front and that was
important at the time. My mother enrolled us in St. Peter Claver, but even before then we say that
my mother and her brothers and sisters all attended St. Peter Claver. When this church was being
built at this location, this parish at this location, my grandfather, Dosons Severid de Lopez Oliver,
friends knew him as Lope Oliver, as a business man he was always Lope Oliver, L O P E, helped to
rebuild this church with their [00:02:00] hands their talents and their funds and their dedication to
St. Peter Claver. So this church is a very, very special and indeed a holy place to me and my family.
All my mother's brothers and sisters attended school here at St. Peter Claver. My mother was a
very young child about six or seven, [when] her mother died in childbirth with her last child and
there was a nun here, Sister Marcella, who sort of took her in as her little girl. That's my mother's
story and became her mother at school. My mother talked about that with great emotion all the
time. So when I came along and it was time to be baptized...thus as Alice Marcella Bailey,
something I'm real proud of. You can see it by the big grin on my face. I'm real proud of that.
ABailey I'm especially happy about [00:03:00] the experience afforded me as a child and a student
at St. Peter Claver. This is a holy place to many of us. My first teacher, as I said, was Mrs. Mary
Davis, kindergarten, and then the illustrious and very dedicated Miss Eva Lunday, first grade. I
don't recall my second grade teacher. However, my fourth-grade teacher was Sister Johanna. Now
Sister Johanna didn't play at all. You better learn and if you didn't learn she introduced you to her
ruler with your hand outstretched upturned. However, she is a very fine teacher, a math teacher.
She taught us the appreciation for arithmetic and was steady in that. We had nuns, women who
taught us, and made sure that we received a proper education that could be afforded under all
circumstances of the times. [00:04:00] One of my fondest memories is our teacher, the teacher
who became very dear to me into my adulthood, Sister Louis Marie. She was gonna be out of class
for the day and Mother had to come across the hall on the second floor of the school on the east
side of the school and manage both her class and ours. She left the doors open so she could hear
any disturbance across the hall. She gave us something to learn in a few minutes, The Psalms of
Life by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. That was the first poem that I remember having to learn, in
something like 10 or 15 minutes. And she came back across the hall eventually and had us all
repeat this poem. And she looked us in the eye as we were doing it to make sure that we knew the
1
�poem. It sparked my interest and [00:05:00] appreciation for literature. To this day. The Psalms of
Life by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.
ABailey "Tell me not, in mournful numbers, Life is but an empty dream! For the soul is dead that
slumbers, And things are not what they seem. [Life is] real! [Life is] earnest! And the grave is not
its goal..." 1
ABailey He goes on and on and on. A very, very wonderful experience. We learned to respect one
another. We learned to achieve. We learned what was important to us: Family; Personal
appearance; Doing for others. I learned that you share with others because it's the right thing to
do. I learned that you share with others because it makes you feel good about yourself and all in
all, what's most important, is to be a good person. You don't have to be pretty. You don't have to
be thin, [00:06:00] or be fat, or be rich, but you have to be respected and one way to be respected
is to give respect and to share. Now that came out of my household and out of here, St. Peter
Claver. This to me is a very special place.
ABailey I come to Mass early, a half hour early, because I must sit in the seat that my grandfather
sat, which became my mother's seat and when I was a little girl all the children sat in the first two
rows in the front facing the altar which I would really like to see happen again because when you
learn the Mass as a child in the school and you come to Mass on Sunday and you're behind these
tall adults when all you can see is their back, you don't have a chance to practice what you have
been learning five days a week in school. It just seems so terribly unfair to these babies [00:07:00]
that they can't see and practice a Mass. So, I sat in the front. A nun would sit on the first two rows
at the end, boys side, the girls side and a favorite seventh-grader or eighth-grader would sit
directly behind them to manage the second row.
ABailey Now that meant you had prestige and honor if you were that favorite seventh or eighth
grader and you worked for that position. You made sure that you qualified for that position which
help you establish character in very small way, but a consistent way. That's what you get at St.
Peter Claver. That's what we got in St. Peter Claver. No one said, "Oh you must be such and such."
They put you in a position that you could see, this is where you want to be. This is the kind of
person you want to be. This is the achiever you must be and that is so very very important,
especially now with so much that's on television and in the news that's not positive and certainly
[00:08:00] not instructive to our children. So way back then that's what St. Peter Claver was
establishing for us. Very very important. I'd like to see that happen again.
BMiddlebrooks Some of the other interviews were talking about their experiences with activities
through the school time.
ABailey Oh yes. Oh yes.
BMiddlebrooks What do you remember about those activities? Well, what kind of activities were
here when you were here?
ABailey May Day. Girl Scouts. Boy Scouts. Standing up reciting poems. Those were important.
Those were the ones that made the greatest impact on me. Selling Turkey raffles. Trying to be the
one that sold the most so you can win that bicycle. I remember the boys band, the boys being in
1 The Psalms of Life by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, for complete poem:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44644/a-psalm-of-life
2
�the band: Bernard Abrams, Bernard Brown, [00:09:00] Joe Russell. All of these young boys were
introduced to music, introduced to being a musician. A couple went on to really stand out at
Ballard Hudson High School. 2 I think they were in the band, they were respectable. They came in
understanding the instruments and how to be in a band. And I don't think any other grammar
schools in the area offered that experience during the ‘50s here. But that was very, very
important.
We had to because we had to stand up and -- and recite which gave us a lot of confidence. I think
that those are the things most I remember. I think we went on a couple of field trips. I seem to
think we went to St. Elizabeth's in Atlanta, I think. [00:10:00] I think that's where. But mostly I
remember how dedicated our teachers were to making sure that we understood. I don't
remember ever being chastised in a demeaning way or seeing others chastised in a demeaning
way. Now, Sister Johanna had a ruler, and you didn't want her attention with that ruler. That's one
of the things. You had to put your hand out. She would reach way back and come down on your
hand with that ruler. But there wasn't meant to be cruel. It was meant to get your attention.
BMiddlebrooks You spoke about Sister Louis Marie. She was here as a teacher.
ABailey Oh yes.
BMiddlebrooks And I remember she came back when I was here. She came back [00:11:00] as the
principal.
ABailey Yes.
BMiddlebrooks You were gone then, when she came back as principal, right?
ABailey But let me just tell you something about her and I definitely want you to hear this. When it
is time to go to Xavier, go to college, my parents, the marriage at broken up and my mother had
been a housewife basically all of her life with my father. And so the funds weren't available. They
just weren't there. And she called Xavier University 3 down in New Orleans and spoke to another
Sister of the Blessed Sacrament, about providing an opportunity for me to go to college. I became
assistant to the House Mother of the freshman dormitory which paid my room and board. She got
a job for me as the cashier in the cafeteria for dinner which paid for my tuition. And then I had
other jobs off campus. I'd been in radio here before as a disc jockey, WIBB for two and a half years
prior to going, so I was able to get another job in New Orleans and she arranged [00:12:00] to
have them accept that I would leave the campus every day to go work yet come back [at the end
of the day]. Without her, I would not have been able to go to Xavier, would not have had one of
the most incredible experiences of my life, learning and social experiences and just all around
character building experiences.
ABailey We moved in Philadelphia while I was at Xavier move from Macon to Philadelphia. She
introduced Mother to a Mother Raymond at St. Ignatius4 so that she would have another
connection to the Catholic Church and a nun who was a very fine connection. My mother died
when I was in college and Sister Louis Marie had become Sister Bernadette Stack by then I think.
Ballard Hudson High School in Macon, Georgia. For more information: https://ballardhudson.bcsdk12.net
Xavier University of Louisiana, New Orleans, Louisiana. For more information: https://xulastory.com/
4 Our Mother of Sorrows/St. Ignatius of Loyola Catholic School, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. For more information:
https://omssiphila.independencemissionschools.org/our-school/history/
2
3
3
�Eventually I moved downtown from West Philadelphia, two blocks from St. Peter Claver [00:13:00]
Church 5 establish there and I would go to church on Sunday there. But one day I went to a
different Mass. And lo and behold who's there, Sister Louis Marie. Well this was an incredible
experience to be back together. By that time, I was working for a major company in Philadelphia,
BlueCross. She would come in from the Mother House (after the school closed down there) to see
a doctor. We would always have lunch and there was a Catholic man at Blue Cross, who was
[executive] senior staff, Vice President, and he saw us once having lunch and realize that I knew
some nuns. Well he started coming to lunch with us. And it was just an incredible experience to
have her as my friend that I was introducing into a Vice President of the company I worked for,
[00:14:00] so it upped to my status. And she was able to tell him all about me as a child. And that
was just a little personal thing. She was such a fantastic influence on our lives. A very special
human being.
KLockard Now did you graduate from Xavier, or did you graduate from St. Ignatius?
ABailey St. Ignatius was a grammar school. No, no. A graduate from Xavier and I'm very involved
Xavier. In fact, I've been responsible for several of the young people from this parish going to
Xavier on scholarships. And I always want to talk to any young person who is interested in going to
Xavier. It's a fine, fine, fine university establish Mother Katharine Drexel 6 from the famous and rich
Drexel family of Philadelphia. And she established the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament, an order
that I have tremendous respect for, tremendous respect. It not that I heard about them, I knew
about them, very personally I knew about them from my mother's time [00:15:00] to this time
through today.
BMiddlebrooks Tell us a bit about the book you want to publish.
ABailey Oh yes. Oh yes. I'd like permission to do further research and publish a book on Saint
Peter Claver 7 and who he was, what he did, the character image that he's established for us to
follow. I think when you come to any institution that's named for a person in history, one should
know about that person. I want our children at St. Peter Claver School to know about him. I want
those who have chosen St. Peter Claver as their church home, who have come from elsewhere to
know where they are and why this church exists, this parish exists.
ABailey Initially, this parish was established for African-American people and it has always been
open to anyone who want to come. And now it is very, very integrated. [00:16:00] We're all one
big church family here, but there are people who don't know about Peter Claver. I think that
should be taught in kindergarten, first grade, and it certainly should be a pamphlet always
available for persons, maybe every few Sundays a passage from the book can be taken out put in
the Bulletin so for persons passing through or learning gradually without buying the entire book
would be able to know about St. Peter Claver, because his life is a pattern for us to follow. And we
should have that option, we should have an opportunity to know it.
ABailey I also would like to see the children sit in the front again. They sit behind us and we are all,
especially some of the men, the men are so broad I can't see around them! They can't see. They
can't see the consecration of the host, one of the most important activities in the Mass. [00:17:00]
St. Peter Claver Church, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Church closed in April 2019. For more information:
https://catholicphilly.com/2019/03/news/local-news/long-time-base-for-citys-black-catholics-set-to-close/
6 St. Katharine Drexel (1858-1955). For more information:
https://www.katharinedrexel.org/st_katharine_drexel_overview/
7 St. Peter Claver (1581-1654). For more information: https://www.franciscanmedia.org/saint-of-the-day/saint-peter-claver
5
4
�I seem to attract little ones, three or four-year olds they come and sit with me. I enjoy that they're
busy, but when it's time for the consecration of the Mass I put them on the aisle, and I'll tell the
person in front of me, "Please move over a little bit, sir." I guess I'm the Church Patrol Officer – so
that the baby can see what's going on at the altar. I think that we must do that as our obligation. I
really want them to sit in those front row seats. I really do. I want to see us invite young people to
be in the choir. Give them an opportunity to use their voices and let them know this is their
church. In Southern language, "This b’longs to them." We should have them very active in every
part of it. And in that choir, I'd love to hear some nice young voices in that choir and be able to pat
them on the back at the end of Mass and say, "Baby, you did so well today. Thank you. Thank
you." We don't have that opportunity [00:18:00] and they don't have that opportunity. We don't
have that pleasure and they don't have that opportunity. We have an obligation. Okay. And I'd like
to see us stand up to our obligation.
BMiddlebrooks I'll see what we can do.
ABailey Please. Please. And I'll come over. I can't teach them how to sing, nobody wants to hear
me sing. I don't even hum to the children, but I'll come over and be whatever I'm needed to be to
support this.
BMiddlebrooks Thank you so much for interviewing with us.
ABailey Thank you.
BMiddlebrooks So I hope to have this ready for Black History.
ABailey Thank you for asking me to be a part of this, inviting me to be a part of this. I get very
emotional about St. Peter Claver. It has been a major part of my life and my mother's life. And
there's a fourth generation of my family here married. That's two generations of marriage into the
Baileys. So we are very dedicated to St. Peter Claver.
BMiddlebrooks All right. Thank you so much.
ABailey Thank you.
[End of Interview]
5
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History Interviews
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Interviewed subjects share their experiences as being Black and Catholic, or serving the Black Catholic community, in South Georgia.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Office of Archives and Records
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Diocese of Savannah
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
December 1, 2020
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
James C. Wright
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Language
A language of the resource
English
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Original Format
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WAV
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bettye Middlebrooks and Kathryn Lockard
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Alice Marcella Bailey
Location
The location of the interview
St. Peter Claver Church, Macon, GA
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Alice Marcella Bailey, July 24, 2019, St. Peter Claver Church, Macon, GA
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Alice Marcella Bailey, 77, was born in Macon, Georgia to Hattie Lorene Costella Oliver Bailey (d. 1962) and Horace Bailey (d. 1965), the middle of three children. She attended St. Peter Claver Catholic School and [Old] Ballard High School (later named Ballard-Hudson Senior High School) in Macon, GA. She went on to Xavier University, where she earned a B.A. in economics and history in 1963. She also holds certificates from Boston College, University of Penn., NYU School of continuing education, Macon State College, and AARP. She is retired from Independence Blue Cross (IBC) of Philadelphia, PA where she served as Communications Director. She also worked in the Philadelphia Family Court, Westinghouse Broadcasting, and as a career development counselor for the City of Macon. She continues to volunteer in the community. Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA, and a member of the Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
In her interview, Ms. Bailey discusses her experiences at St. Peter Claver Church and School in Macon and her relationships with religious women in the community.
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Office of Archives and Records, Catholic Diocese of Savannah
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Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Date
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July 24, 2019
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James C. Wright, Stephanie M. Braddy
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Archives & Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Copyright 2019.
This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in the US copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that allowed by fair use requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
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English
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<h2><strong><em><a href="https://ohms.libs.uga.edu/viewer.php?cachefile=dlg/ohdiosav/bailey-alice-2019-07-24-spcpm.xml" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Click here for Interview Audio and Transcript Index</a></em></strong></h2>
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PDF Text
Text
Oral Memoirs
of
Barbara Clowers
St. Peter Claver, Macon
An Interview
Conducted by
Bettye Middlebrooks &
Katy Lockard
on
September 12, 2019
Accession: 20190912.01
Community Elders, Black Catholic Oral History Project
Archives & Records Management Department,
Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Copyright 2019
�This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute
copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in the US
copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that allowed by fair use
requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
�Table of Contents
General Policy and Purposes .................................................................................................... iv
Oral History Procedure ............................................................................................................. iv
Legal Status ............................................................................................................................... iv
Interview History ....................................................................................................................... v
Collection/Project Detail ........................................................................................................... v
Interview Transcript, 9/12/2019 ............................................................................................... 1
�General Policies and Procedures
A member of the Oral History Association, the Archives & Records Management Department of the Catholic
Diocese of Savannah (A&R) supports and embodies the goals, guidelines, and standards of archival quality
prescribed by the national professional association to ensure long-term preservation of memoirs. It is the
practice of A&R to select narrators whose recollections, as participants or eyewitnesses, are relevant to the
department’s chosen research topics. Their recorded memoirs provide links between the immediate past
and the present in a very human way. A scholarly but relaxed and conversational atmosphere exists during
the interview. To encourage completely candid recollections, the narrator is asked to regard the oral history
memoir as a highly personal journal. The transcribed historical document, which the finished memoir
becomes, is the raw material used by historians and professional scholars.
In the interest of preserving these memories for future use, the narrator and interviewer must sign a deed
of gift agreement. Generally, this releases their portions of the interview to the oral history archives of
Catholic Diocese of Savannah for historical and academic research and public dissemination. The narrator
may also choose to restrict the memoir by limiting access or by sealing the memoir until a specified date.
Memoir Procedure
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Initial contact with the narrator.
Arrangements made for interview(s).
Recording of interview(s).
Transcribing of recording(s) in the A&R office.
Audit-checking and editing of transcript(s) in the A&R office. Abstract(s) created.
Review of transcript(s) by interviewer.
Review of transcript(s) by narrator. Due to edits requested, transcript(s) may not match audio
recording(s) exactly.
8. Upload of draft transcript(s) and recording(s) to A&R’s web portal.
9. Presentation of bound copy of completed memoir to the interviewee.
Legal Status
Scholarly use of the recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) with Barbara Clowers is unrestricted.
The deed of gift agreement was signed on November 5, 2020.
iv
�Interview History
The recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) were processed in the offices of the Archives &
Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Savannah, Georgia.
Interviewer:
Bettye Middlebrooks
Transcriber:
James C. Wright
Editor:
Stephanie Braddy
Collection/Project Detail
The Diocese of Savannah is collecting oral histories from members of the Black Catholic community to fill in
gaps in the documentation.
Barbara Clowers (née Brooks), 88, was born in Macon, GA in 1931 to Julia Bell Brown of Albany, GA and
Harold Sheffield Brooks of Macon, GA. Her mother worked as a teacher and her father was an agent with
Atlanta Life Insurance in Macon, as well as a musician. Sadly, Julia died in childbirth with her youngest child,
Essie. Barbara was only five years old. Following the death of her mother, Barbara and two of her siblings,
Marilyn and Harold Jr., were raised with their grandmother. The baby, Essie, was sent to live with the niece
of her grandmother in Philadelphia, where she met Mother Katharine Drexel (canonized a saint in 2000)
and served her whenever Mother Katharine visited the school Essie attended.
Barbara worked as a teacher for 5 years in Bibb County Schools and was a social worker for 20 years in Bibb
County, DFACS. In 1956, Barbara married Frank Clowers, a mechanical engineer. Frank received his degree
from West Virginia State College (now a University). He worked for Robins Air Force Base and Travis Air
Force Base in graphic and design. He also taught at Macon Technical College. After 53 years of marriage,
Frank died in 2009. They had two children, Michael who also died in 2018 and Francine lives in South
Carolina.
Barbara and Frank were not born Catholic. They converted later in life. Frank’s sister was Catholic. After
Marilyn (Barbara’s sister) married, she and her husband became catholic and shortly after that Frank and
Barbara became Catholic as well and fully immersed themselves in the St. Peter Claver community. Barbara
served as the first Director of Evangelization and organized the Vacation Bible School summer programs.
She also volunteered with St. Peter Claver’s food pantry.
Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA and a member of the
Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
Katy Lockard is the Director of Archives & Records Management for the Catholic Diocese of Savannah.
v
�Interview Transcript
BMiddlebrooks Okay, my name is Betty Middlebrooks and this is September 19, 2019. I am
interviewing Barbara Clowers for the first time, and this interview is taking place at the
Diocesan office, Pastoral Center in Savannah. This interview is sponsored by St. Peter Claver
Catholic Church and School. It is a part of the Black Catholic History interviews. Okay Barbara,
first let me thank you for agreeing to this interview. I want you to think back, go back in time,
and tell us what you remember about your earliest days at St. Peter Claver and school.
BClowers Well, as a child, I would go to St. Peter Claver [00:01:00] to mass sometimes with Mrs.
Essie Hutchings who was the organist at that time, and a dear friend of my late mother’s. In the
early sixties, I was not Catholic, but Mother Cleophas, 1 who was sort of a person who wanted
her way, and had her way. She was not the type of person to just say “yes, yes” to everything
Father Galvin had asked. And Father Galvin 2 was an Irish priest and very accustomed to running
a very lean school. I think tuition was about ten dollars per month at that time. But anyway,
Mother Cleophas said that she was not going to collect [00:02:00] students’ fees and try to
teach a class too. That she wanted a certified teacher to come in and teach her eighth grade
classes. My sister, at that time, was Catholic, and still is. She said [to Mother Cleophas] “Well,
my sister is a teacher and she’s not working, she’s staying home with her children.” So she
[Mother Cleophas] said “Well, will she come?” and she [my sister] said, “I’ll ask.” And I did, I
went. And the first time I went, was to the kindergarten classroom. That was Mrs. Davis, Mrs.
Mary Davis,3 who was about four feet tall. Everybody loved Mrs. Davis. And everybody wanted
their children to be in her [00:03:00] kindergarten class, especially the teachers in Macon and
Bibb County. But Mrs. Davis’s mother died the second—about the second day into school, and
Mother Cleophas called me and asked me if I would come and teach this class. Well, the
children had not gotten acclimated to school. They had not, um, they talked with their fingers in
their mouths. They were just sort of very shy. And uh, it was sort of hard—it’s the hardest work
1
Sr. M. Cleophas Hubby, S.B.S. was born Grace Kathleen Hubby on February 11, 1923 in New York to Edward J and
Elsie A. Hubby. She had two brother, Robert and Martin. She became a Sister of the Blessed Sacrament, and served
as the superior of the Macon convent from August 1966 to August 1968. She was succeeded by Mother M. Joseph
Damien. At some point, likely following Vatican II in 1965, she changed her name back to her baptismal name and
was referred to as Sr. Grace Kathleen Hubby, S.B.S. Sr. Grace died on July 20, 2003 at the Sisters of the Blessed
Sacrament Motherhouse in Bensalem, PA and is buried in the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament Cemetery in the
same city.
Rev. John J. Galvin, S.M.A. was born in Athlone, Ireland. He was ordained to the priesthood in the order of the
Society of African Missionary Fathers (S.M.A.) in 1934 and spent ten years in Nigeria before coming to the United
States. He served as pastor at St. Peter Claver Parish from 1955 to 1970, when he retired. Fr. Galvin’s retirement
ended the S.M.A.’s administration of St. Peter Claver Parish, which began in 1917. Following his retirement, Fr.
Galvin remained in residence at St. Peter Claver until his death in July 1980 in Tenafly, NJ.
2
Mrs. Mary Davis was a kindergarten teacher at St. Peter Claver School for many years during the 1950s, 1960s
and 1970s, however her exact arrival and retirement dates are unknown. She was small in stature but had a big
heart and a way with children. She was well known throughout the community because of her reputation at the
school. Mrs. Davis was married to Dan Davis who died young due to complications from surgery. While the couple
had no children of their own, Mrs. Davis raised her niece and nephew, Mildred and Carl Henderson.
3
1
�I have ever done in my life. Especially, there was no air conditioning, there was no fans, no
screens at the windows. [00:04:00] And these children sat at these cute little tables, and um,
there was no lunch room. Everybody, all the parents made lunches for their children. So every
child had a cute little Shirley Temple lunchbox with a thermos inside. And inside those boxes
was Kool-Aid, inside those thermoses was Kool-Aid. Well, there were about sixty plus children
every day. In fact, Mrs. Davis’s classroom is now two classrooms. They made it into two
classrooms when St. Peter Claver was redesigned—well, yes, redesigned—on that floor. By the
time I would go around and get all these thermoses open, the children would eat [00:05:00]
their little lunch and then they would try to start putting the tops back onto the thermoses. And
the thermoses—they couldn’t get them on straight and they were spilling Kool-Aid on the table
where they had to work. Flies were everywhere. The tables were sticky. It was hot. So, I told
Mother Cleophas I just had to have some help to at least get those thermoses back on because
it took a long time for me to go to sixty children and put thermoses back—to screw the tops
back on. But anyway, it was, like on Friday evening, the floors were so sticky, that I mopped.
Every Friday, I would mop. The two Fridays I was there, I would mop the floors. And uh,
[00:06:00] maybe change the water three times. That was the hardest work I’ve ever done in
my life. But, it was so enjoyable.
BMiddlebrooks Talk to me about Fr. William Coleman. 4
BClowers Father Coleman came to Macon, I think, to integrate the schools and the churches.
And uh, it was said that uh—this is ugly to say on tape especially—that the people at St. Joseph
told him “this is our school and our church.” But, Father Coleman did things to bring the
schools—to right interactions between the parishioners at Holy Spirit, St. Peter Claver, and St.
Joseph.5 We had [00:07:00] picnics. We had various outings. I think the beautiful thing, and I
don’t know whether they do it now or not, was Confirmation. Parents had to attend
Confirmation classes. And it was held at St. Peter Claver. So, the people from St. Joseph had to
come to lowly St. Peter Claver for Confirmation. But the actual Confirmation ceremony was
held at St. Joseph, in their basement, and it was beautiful. I remember candles being around
some of the posts and the candles were down in sand. It was just beautiful. But it brought us
together and we got a chance to interact with one another. But I don’t know whether any of
that is going on now or not.
BMiddlebrooks So when he [Father Coleman] came, he came to work with all [00:08:00] three
parishes? Not just—
Rev. William “Bill” Coleman was born in Waterbury, CT in 1932. After attending seminary and being ordained a
priest of the Diocese of Savannah in Hartford, CT in 1957, Rev. Coleman served in various Diocesan Administrative
positions. These include Rector of St. John Vianney Minor Seminary (SAV), Vocations Director, Permanent
Diaconate Director, Administrative Coordinator of St. Pius X High School (SAV), a marriage tribunal official, and
Director of the Department of Christian Formation. On January 31, 1970 Rev. Coleman was appointed pastor of St.
Joseph Parish, Macon and Vicar Forane (Dean) of the Macon Deanery. In his capacity as Dean, Rev. Coleman served
the local authority to parishes in the area, including St. Peter Claver. He served in Macon until about 1973 when he
took an extended leave of absence from the priesthood. William Coleman died in 2004 in Wilmington, NC.
4
5
Parishes in Macon, Georgia.
2
�BClowers No, he was with St. Joseph. He was the priest at St. Joseph. But, the goal was to
integrate St. Joseph, St. Peter Claver, and Holy Spirit and try to bring about a good Christian
relationship between the three.
BMiddlebrooks Okay, Sam Hall Construction Company, you remember you all had a
relationship with him?
BClowers Mr. Willie S—William—I think his name was Willie Smith, he worked for Sam Hall.
And he—this was when the men would go over and do the playground once a year. During the
summer, while the children were out of school, the men would go over and take care of the
playground. Get the equipment [00:09:00] painted, refurbished, whatever needed repairing.
And Mr. Smith, working for Sam Hall who was in construction, he would bring his—the big
machinery over there and whatever was needed, level off things. It was just a beautiful
relationship because we [the school] didn’t pay anybody to do anything then. Absolutely
nobody. Nobody was paid.
BMiddlebrooks Okay. Now, when Fr. Liam Collins 6 came, he gave you—well, he asked you to
serve on a special ministry—the Evangelization Ministry. You were the first to work in that
ministry. You were the chair of that ministry. Want to talk to us little bit about that and how
that got started?
BClowers Well, Father [Collins] was concerned. I called him the “Little Leprechaun.” He was
concerned that St. Peter Claver was [00:010:00] in the midst of a Black community and that the
church was getting more, quote “pale.” And he wanted us to keep the relationship within the
community as much as possible. So, we did some neat things. We were funded by the Koch
Foundation 7, whose daughter [the founder’s daughter] happened to be a pilot. She flew up to
Macon to interview us because they funded us several years to do the work that we did. And
we involved the children across the street—there was a cul-de-sac across the street with a lot
of children. We also involved children from the Booker T. Washington Community Center 8. And
we would take them. [00:11:00] But we also had our own [school] children. So, we wanted to
bring—we wanted to try to bring people together to show God’s love. To not proselytize, but to
just show God’s love in the community and that St. Peter Claver is here if you need us. And I can
remember the Sisters giving out bread to people in that cul-de-sac. But those children came
over and they—we took them to CNN [in Atlanta]. We chartered a bus to CNN. We took them
to Perry, Georgia, to the Agricenter [State Fairgrounds] in Perry [00:12:00].
Fr. Liam Collins was born in 1946 in County Tipperary, Ireland. He was ordained a priest for the Diocese of
Savannah in June 1971 at St. Patrick’s College in Thurles, Ireland. Prior to his appointment at St. Peter Claver, Fr.
Collins was pastor at Most Pure Heart of Mary Church in Savannah for 13 years. He served as pastor at St. Peter
Claver from January 1988 to August 1994, before taking an extended leave of absence.
6
The Koch Foundation is one of the largest charity foundations in the United States. It has given millions of dollars
to arts, science, research, educational, and cancer institutions.
7
The Booker T. Washington Community Center in Macon is permanently closed, but was recently purchased by the
Macon Bibb County Parks Department in 2019 and may open again soon.
8
3
�BMiddlebrooks Nutcracker.
BClowers Yeah, forgot about that! Yeah, we took them to the Nutcracker. And this is where the
funding came in so good from Koch Foundation, because we could buy these children’s tickets.
We would take them to the Museum of Arts and Sciences [in Macon], to see the Christmas
trees once a year, and we were always praised for how well the children acted. So—
BMiddlebrooks Did part of that funding also go to the vacation bible school?
BClowers Right, vacation bible school was also done. And we—I’m trying to think, I don’t want
to leave anything out. I’ve mentioned CNN, oh, the Air Museum. We took them down
[00:13:00] to the Air Museum also. We wanted to give these children enrichment because any
child can learn what’s in a book. But they didn’t have the enrichment that they needed. And I
knew how important that was, and so we tried to take them out to places where they ordinarily
would not have gone. It was a wonderful time and I miss it, but I’m too old to do it now
[laughs].
BMiddlebrooks Okay, when did you actually become—I know you were there all the time—but
when did you actually become Catholic?
BClowers I think it was in 1970, maybe it was 1970, and it was a large class. I don’t think there
has been a [00:14:00] larger class in RCIA 9. Father O’Sullivan 10 was the priest then. He really
rushed us through, and we—it was just a beautiful time. And I think we had maybe had our first
communion—I’m trying to think, was it—I don’t remember if it was at Christmas or during the
spring, like when they normally do it.11 Maybe it was in the spring. As I said, Father O’Sullivan
was the priest at the time.
BMiddlebrooks Okay. And then you had two children that went to St. Peter Claver and
graduated from Mount de Sales, correct? 12
BClowers One son. The son graduated from Mount de Sales. The daughter went to South
Carolina and graduated from a school over there.
BMiddlebrooks Okay. [00:15:00] What about grandchildren?
Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults is a required process for adults who hope to convert to Catholicism. It is led
by a priest and lay leaders who offer instruction, guidance and support and includes several stages marked by
study, prayer and rites at mass.
9
10
Reverend Michael O’Sullivan was assigned as pastor to St. Peter Claver School from 1969 to 1971.
The Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, which mandates the Easter season as the season for accepting
converts, was formally approved for use in the United States in 1974. Before then, as with Mrs. Clowers, converts
entered the church through the guidance and direction of a priest.
11
Mount de Sales Academy in Macon, Georgia, founded 1876. See https://www.mountdesales.net/about/ourhistory for more information.
12
4
�BClowers Grandson went to, my son’s son, went to Mount de Sales and was quite a smart
young man. Very proud of him. He works with an electrical engineering company in Norcross,
Georgia. Mount de Sales prepared him well; of course, he was a very focused young man. So,
he was a Georgia Tech graduate.
BMiddlebrooks Okay, Katy, do you have any other questions?
KLockard Well, I was just interested to hear a little bit about your story of why you chose to
become Catholic. You know, you sounded like you were part of the community, and maybe you
can talk just a little bit about that sort of journey?
BClowers Well, I guess [00:16:00] the journey had started early with Mrs. Essie Hutchings 13,
who was the organist years and years ago. Then when my sister married a Catholic, and my
sister-in-law—my husband’s sister—married a Catholic—they lived in South Carolina—I guess I
was thinking about my children too. If something happen to us, what would happen to my
children? And plus, the priest—maybe I shouldn’t say this—but he didn’t have problems with
not having a large family. And that was a concern to me because my mother died when I was
five years old. [00:17:00] Childbirth and pneumonia. We were little stair-steps. I was the oldest
at five years old and twelve days. So I just had a problem with the Catholic Church’s view on
contraceptives and things of that sort.14 But as I say, Father O’Sullivan, he was a different kind
of person [laughs]. And he said he came up very, very poor, so maybe that’s why he had some
of the thoughts that he had about it. It made me feel like, “well, you can come to the Catholic
Church,” you know. So that was, I guess, my motivation. Plus, I was—I was at a church—at the
Presbyterian church, [00:18:00] which was my mother’s church, and it was—at that time, it was
a dying church. It was just a few families and I was playing for church, teaching Sunday school,
doing the flowers, you know, and I just felt like I was washed out. And I told my husband, “I am
going to leave the Presbyterian church and I’m going to the Catholic church.” And he said “I will
go too.”
BMiddlebrooks Okay. Now, in a lot of the interviews I’ve done, Mrs. Essie Hutching’s name
came up a lot.
BClowers Yeah, she—
BMiddlebrooks So she was very well known in the community, wasn’t she?
BClowers Yeah, she grew up—she was in a convent at one time.
Essie Hutchings was born on November 23, 1894 to Ida Bond and Charlie Williams. It is unknown whether Mrs.
Hutchings grew up Catholic or converted later in life, but at some point she joined St. Peter Claver as was their
musician for many years. Essie was married to William (Willie) Pope Hutchings of Hutchings Funeral Home in
Macon while Essie was a homemaker and active in the church community. She died on September 22, 1961 at age
66 and is buried in the Oakridge section of Rose Hill Cemetery on the Hutchings family plot.
13
This reflects Ms. Clowers’ feelings and experience at the time, but does not necessarily reflect her current
feelings or the Church’s teachings. For up to date information on the Catholic Church and contraceptives, please
see: https://www.usccb.org/committees/pro-life-activities/contraception
14
5
�BMiddlebrooks Oh, okay.
BClowers Yeah, in a Catholic school, boarding school. And she married Willie Hutchings, of
Hutchings Funeral Home. And she was sort of like, I guess, a mentor to my mother. And a very
dear friend of hers, but she was a very devout Catholic. And she played the organ there for
years.
BMiddlebrooks Okay. Thank you very much, Barbara.
[End of interview]
6
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History Interviews
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Interviewed subjects share their experiences as being Black and Catholic, or serving the Black Catholic community, in South Georgia.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Office of Archives and Records
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Diocese of Savannah
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
December 1, 2020
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
James C. Wright
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Language
A language of the resource
English
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bettye Middlebrooks and Kathryn Lockard
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Barbara Clowers
Location
The location of the interview
St. Peter Claver Parish
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
wav (audio only)
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
19 minutes, 27 seconds
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Barbara Clowers, September 12, 2019, Catholic Pastoral Center, Savannah, GA
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History of Savannah
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Office of Archives and Records, Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Date
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September 19, 2019
Contributor
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James C. Wright, Stephanie M. Braddy
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Archives & Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Copyright 2019.
This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in the US copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that allowed by fair use requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
Language
A language of the resource
English
Description
An account of the resource
Barbara Clowers shares her experiences as a teacher at St. Peter Claver School. She also witnessed the racial integration of the parishes in Macon, and served as the Chair of the SPC Evangelist Mission which had a great impact on the community and children.
Barbara Clowers (née Brooks), 88, was born in Macon, GA in 1931 to Julia Bell Brown of Albany, GA, and Harold Sheffield Brooks of Macon, GA. Her mother worked as a teacher and her father was an agent with Atlanta Life Insurance in Macon, as well as a musician. Sadly, Julia died in childbirth with her youngest child, Essie. Barbara was only five years old. Following the death of her mother, Barbara and two of her siblings, Marilyn and Harold Jr., were raised with their grandmother. The baby, Essie, was sent to live with the niece of her grandmother in Philadelphia, where she met Mother Katharine Drexel (canonized a saint in 2000) and served her whenever Mother Katharine visited the school Essie attended.
Barbara worked as a teacher for 5 years in Bibb County Schools and was a social worker for 20 years in Bibb County, DFACS. In 1956, Barbara married Frank Clowers, a mechanical engineer. Frank received his degree from West Virginia State College (now a University). He worked for Robins Air Force Base and Travis Air Force Base in graphics and design. He also taught at Macon Technical College. After 53 years of marriage, Frank died in 2009. They had two children, Michael who also died in 2018 and Francine lives in South Carolina.
Barbara and Frank were not born Catholic. They converted later in life. Frank’s sister was Catholic. After Marilyn (Barbara’s sister) married, she and her husband became Catholic, and shortly after that Frank and Barbara became Catholic as well and fully immersed themselves in the St. Peter Claver community. Barbara served as the first Director of Evangelization and organized the Vacation Bible School summer programs. She also volunteered with St. Peter Claver’s food pantry.
Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA and a member of the Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
Katy Lockard is the Director of Archives & Records Management for the Catholic Diocese of Savannah.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
20190912.01
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<h2><em><a href="https://ohms.libs.uga.edu/viewer.php?cachefile=dlg/ohdiosav/clowers-barbara-2019-09-19-spcpm.xml" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Click here for Interview Audio and Transcript Index</a></em></h2>
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PDF Text
Text
Oral Memoirs
of
Carol Redding Cummings
St. Peter Claver, Macon
An Interview
Conducted by
Bettye Middlebrooks &
Katy Lockard
on
July 24, 2019
Accession: 20190724.02
Community Elders, Black Catholic Oral History Project
Archives & Records Management Department,
Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Copyright 2019
�This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute
copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in
the US copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that
allowed by fair use requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
ii
�Table of Contents
General Policy and Purposes......................................................................................... iv
Oral History Procedure ................................................................................................. iv
Legal Status ................................................................................................................... iv
Interview History ............................................................................................................v
Collection/Project Detail ................................................................................................v
Interview Transcript, 7/24/2019 ................................................................................... 1
iii
�General Policies and Procedures
A member of the Oral History Association, the Archives & Records Management Department of the Catholic
Diocese of Savannah (A&R) supports and embodies the goals, guidelines, and standards of archival quality
prescribed by the national professional association to ensure long-term preservation of memoirs. It is the
practice of A&R to select narrators whose recollections, as participants or eyewitnesses, are relevant to the
department’s chosen research topics. Their recorded memoirs provide links between the immediate past
and the present in a very human way. A scholarly but relaxed and conversational atmosphere exists during
the interview. To encourage completely candid recollections, the narrator is asked to regard the oral history
memoir as a highly personal journal. The transcribed historical document, which the finished memoir
becomes, is the raw material used by historians and professional scholars.
In the interest of preserving these memories for future use, the narrator and interviewer must sign a deed
of gift agreement. Generally, this releases their portions of the interview to the oral history archives of
Catholic Diocese of Savannah for historical and academic research and public dissemination. The narrator
may also choose to restrict the memoir by limiting access or by sealing the memoir until a specified date.
Oral History Procedure
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Initial contact with the narrator.
Arrangements made for interview(s).
Recording of interview(s).
Transcribing of recording(s) in the A&R office.
Audit-checking and editing of transcript(s) in the A&R office. Abstract(s) created.
Review of transcript(s) by interviewer.
Review of transcript(s) by narrator. Due to edits requested, transcript(s) may not match audio
recording(s) exactly.
8. Upload of draft transcript(s) and recording(s) to A&R’s web portal.
9. Presentation of bound copy of completed oral history to the interviewee.
Legal Status
Scholarly use of the recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) with Carol Redding Cummings is
unrestricted. The deed of gift agreement was signed on 11/1/2020.
iv
�Interview History
The recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) were processed in the offices of the Archives &
Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Savannah, Georgia.
Interviewer:
Bettye Middlebrooks
Transcriber:
James Wright
Editor:
Stephanie Braddy
Collection/Project Detail
The Diocese of Savannah is collecting oral histories from members of the Black Catholic community to fill in
gaps in the documentation.
Carol Redding Cummings, 85, was born in Macon, GA to Margaret R. Sullivan (1910-2008) and Horace
Redding (1916-1982). She was one of five children, four sisters, and one brother.
In addition to working as a homemaker and raising her children, Carol did clerical work in the Bibb County
School System. She also worked as a seamstress at R.S. Tharpe Men’s clothing store for three years prior
to joining the Bibb County School System.
Carol is a long-time member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, where she attended school as a child and
sang in the choir for over 70 years.
Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA, and a member of the
Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
Katy Lockard is the Director of Archives & Records Management for the Catholic Diocese of Savannah.
v
�Interview Transcript
KLockard Okay, can you start by telling us your full name please?
CCummings Carol Redding Cummings.
KLockard Okay, and can you spell it for us, please?
CCummings Capital C-A-R-O-L. Capital R. Capital C-U-M-M-I-N-G-S.
KLockard Thank you.
BMiddlebrooks Okay Carol, first I want to thank you for agreeing to this interview. And we're
trying to put together some black history from the parishioners from our mouths, history as they
remember it. So if you will go back, as far as you can and tell us what you remember about your
days at the church and school.
CCummings All right. My husband kept that. [00:01:00] So, will you get for me?
KLockard Okay. Let me go grab it from your husband.
CCummings He asked me to bring it. It's something that includes my grandparents and the rock of
the Christian religion for us. [Pause] And then you of course ask me questions too. [Pause] All
right. Are you going to ask? Or what are we going...
BMiddlebrooks No, I want you to tell us.
CCummings All right. Thank you Ms. Middlebrooks, for giving me the opportunity to take a stroll
down memory lane. [00:02:00] I have a rich religious history at St. Peter Claver Church and School.
In the mid-1800s, my religious history began with the birth of my grandparents John and Sally
Hughes. Eleven children were born to this couple. Six children died at birth and five survived. Each
one of the children and later their families, were church members.
CCummings In 1904, the school on Ward Street 1 began a faith-based instructional school,
[00:03:00] offering some academic courses. Children of all faiths were allowed to attend.
Margaret, my mother, one of the five, was in the class of students who made their first Holy
Communion in 1917. Her religious life continued throughout her lifetime. She died at age ninetynine. According to church records, Margaret was the oldest senior member of the parish, the one
that she had supported for over eighty-five years.
CCummings [00:04:00] In 1934, I was baptized in the new church and entered school at age five.
Every school day was fun because I could walk home with my grandmother, Sally, who worked in
the convent 2 caring for the nuns. 3 The convent became my second home after a hard day of study.
1
Mrs. Cummings is referencing St. Peter Claver School, which is located on Ward Street in Macon.
2
Convent of the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament, located on the St. Peter Claver Church campus.
The term “nuns” is commonly mistaken for “sisters”. Nuns are cloistered religious women who physically set
themselves apart from the world, and whose “work” for the Church is prayer. A “sister” lives an apostolic life (working
and usually living in the community). They are the ones you would see more often at schools and parishes. It is rare to
see a nun anywhere but her cloister. It is common, but technically incorrect, among the older generations to refer to
3
1
�The miracle on Ward Street was still working. Entering the seventh grade, I joined the church
choir. This was one way I could become an active member of the church family. [00:05:00] I sang
with the church choir over seventy years. The Catholic experience continues to grow within me,
and in my children. Each of them are in some way involved or have been involved in school and
church life. The year is now 2019 and the miracle on Ward Street is alive and well. Thanks.
BMiddlebrooks Okay, Carol, is it my understanding that either your mother or your grandmother
met Katharine Drexel? 4
CCummings Yes.
BMiddlebrooks Who was that?
CCummings [00:06:00] My mother, Margaret.
BMiddlebrooks Margaret. OK. She was actually a member here when Katharine Drexel was here
trying to get everything started.
CCummings Yes.
BMiddlebrooks Okay, now, you went from kindergarten through the eighth...
CCummings Eighth grade.
BMiddlebrooks And during the summers, you all had a summer enrichment program? What was
that?
CCummings One...
BMiddlebrooks What did you all do?
CCummings One particular summer, while the nuns were getting ready to go to Philadelphia 5,
they conducted a little summer session. There were people who came in, taught us how to knit,
how to crochet, how to play ping pong, and how to play volleyball, you know, in the yard. And
sometime we did some coloring and painting, just something to help [00:07:00] occupy us.
BMiddlebrooks And how long did that — did it last the entire summer?
CCummings No, just until the end of June.
BMiddlebrooks Okay.
CCummings Cause then they were ready to go for the summer.
all religious women as “nuns.” However, those who are living out the vocation of “nun” get really annoyed when an
apostolic religious woman is called “nun.” Both also use the term “Sister.”
Katharine Drexel is one of the few American saints who had a relationship with South Georgia’s Black Catholic
Community, and was the foundress of the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament (for Negros and Indians). For more
information: https://www.katharinedrexel.org/st_katharine_drexel_overview/
4
5
Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament Mother House is located in Philadelphia.
2
�BMiddlebrooks Okay. Sister Marcella 6—
CCummings Marcella
BMiddlebrooks ...that is the one who had a special relationship with?
CCummings Yes, Sister Marcella.
BMiddlebrooks And what grade were you in then?
CCummings She taught sixth and seventh grade, one year and then they changed — they
transferred her to the seventh and eighth grade. So, my familiarity with her was well built.
BMiddlebrooks Okay. All right. Now everybody in your family was Catholic.
CCummings Everybody.
BMiddlebrooks Nobody converted, everybody, they were cradle Catholics or whatever.
CCummings Exactly.
BMiddlebrooks Your parents.
CCummings Yes.
BMiddlebrooks Where did they get it from — your parents?
CCummings My parents got it from their parents.
BMiddlebrooks Okay. [00:08:00] So it’s always been?
CCummings Always been. Um-hm.
BMiddlebrooks Okay.
CCummings From the 1800s, and I think the particular year was 1844 and 1846, my grandparents
were born. That's why I said the mid-1800s would cover that period of time.
BMiddlebrooks Okay, so now, right now, do you have any sisters and brothers?
CCummings I have four sisters, well I had three sisters, one brother.
BMiddlebrooks Alive now?
CCummings No. Two are dead now, one sister, one brother. My oldest sister is alive and of course,
me. We all were Catholics and we all participated and graduated from Peter Claver School.
BMiddlebrooks All right, Carol. Thank you so much.
Sr. M. Marcella Keegan, S.B.S. was born Alice Marcella Keegan in Philadelphia, PA on April 6, 1900 to John B. and
Alice Doyal Keegan. She was one of five children, including John, Joseph, Gerald and Frances Keegan. Sr. M. Marcella
served at St. Peter Claver School from 1934-1945 and 1946-1948. She died on June 13, 1988 at the Sisters of the
Blessed Sacrament Motherhouse in Bensalem, PA and is buried in the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament Cemetery in
the same city.
6
3
�CCummings Thank you. [00:09:00]
[End of Interview]
4
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Oral History Interviews
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Interviewed subjects share their experiences as being Black and Catholic, or serving the Black Catholic community, in South Georgia.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Office of Archives and Records
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Diocese of Savannah
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
December 1, 2020
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
James C. Wright
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Language
A language of the resource
English
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
wav file, audio only
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Bettye Middlebrook and Kathryn Lockard
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Carol Cummings
Location
The location of the interview
St. Peter Claver Parish
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
9 minutes 5 seconds
Time Summary
A summary of an interview given for different time stamps throughout the interview
one-minute interverals
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Carol Redding Cummings, July 24, 2019, St. Peter Claver Church, Macon, GA
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Carol Redding Cummings tells of her Christian faith through the family. Her mother was a faithful member at St. Peter Claver for over 85 years. Barbara was baptized at SPC in 1934 and also sang in the choir 70 years.
Carol Redding Cummings, 85, was born in Macon, GA to Margaret R. Sullivan (1910-2008) and Horace Redding (1916-1982). She was one of five children, four sisters, and one brother.
In addition to working as a homemaker and raising her children, Carol did clerical work in the Bibb County School System. She also worked as a seamstress at R.S. Tharpe Men’s clothing store for three years prior to joining the Bibb County School System.
Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA, and a member of the Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Office of Archives and Records, Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
July 24, 2019
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
James C. Wright, Stephanie M. Braddy
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Archives & Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Copyright 2019.
This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in the US copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that allowed by fair use requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
Language
A language of the resource
English
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
20190724.02
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<h2><a href="https://ohms.libs.uga.edu/viewer.php?cachefile=dlg/ohdiosav/cummings-carol-2019-07-24-spcpm.xml" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><em>Click here for Interview Audio and Transcript Index</em></a></h2>
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0384fc8de57a9ad91fe4d27de9eb4a62
PDF Text
Text
Oral Memoirs
of
Gwendolyn Stroud Booker
St. Peter Claver, Macon
An Interview
Conducted by
Bettye Middlebrooks &
Katy Lockard
on
July 24, 2019
Accession: 20190724.03
Community Elders, Black Catholic Oral History Project
Archives & Records Management Department,
Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Copyright 2019
�This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute
copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in the US
copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that allowed by fair use
requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
�Table of Contents
General Policy and Purposes .................................................................................................... iv
Oral History Procedure ............................................................................................................. iv
Legal Status ............................................................................................................................... iv
Interview History ....................................................................................................................... v
Collection/Project Detail ........................................................................................................... v
Interview Transcript, 7/24/2019 ............................................................................................... 1
�General Policies and Procedures
A member of the Oral History Association, the Archives & Records Management Department of the Catholic
Diocese of Savannah (A&R) supports and embodies the goals, guidelines, and standards of archival quality
prescribed by the national professional association to ensure long-term preservation of memoirs. It is the
practice of A&R to select narrators whose recollections, as participants or eyewitnesses, are relevant to the
department’s chosen research topics. Their recorded memoirs provide links between the immediate past
and the present in a very human way. A scholarly but relaxed and conversational atmosphere exists during
the interview. To encourage completely candid recollections, the narrator is asked to regard the oral history
memoir as a highly personal journal. The transcribed historical document, which the finished memoir
becomes, is the raw material used by historians and professional scholars.
In the interest of preserving these memories for future use, the narrator and interviewer must sign a deed
of gift agreement. Generally, this releases their portions of the interview to the oral history archives of
Catholic Diocese of Savannah for historical and academic research and public dissemination. The narrator
may also choose to restrict the memoir by limiting access or by sealing the memoir until a specified date.
Memoir Procedure
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Initial contact with the narrator.
Arrangements made for interview(s).
Recording of interview(s).
Transcribing of recording(s) in the A&R office.
Audit-checking and editing of transcript(s) in the A&R office. Abstract(s) created.
Review of transcript(s) by interviewer.
Review of transcript(s) by narrator. Due to edits requested, transcript(s) may not match audio
recording(s) exactly.
8. Upload of draft transcript(s) and recording(s) to A&R’s web portal.
9. Presentation of bound copy of completed memoir to the interviewee.
Legal Status
Scholarly use of the recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) with Gwendolyn S. Booker is
unrestricted. The deed of gift agreement was signed on November 5, 2020.
iv
�Interview History
The recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) were processed in the offices of the Archives &
Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Savannah, Georgia.
Interviewer:
Bettye Middlebrooks
Transcriber:
James C. Wright
Editor:
Stephanie Braddy
Collection/Project Detail
The Diocese of Savannah is collecting oral histories from members of the Black Catholic community to fill in
gaps in the documentation.
Gwendolyn Stroud Booker, 75, was born in 1944 to Jesse and Otelia Stroud, who were Baptist. Gwendolyn
was one of seven children, who also included Alvin, Wilford, Marilyn, Lawrence, Elise, Vernetha Stroud.
Gwendolyn and her sister Vernetha attended St. Peter Claver School and wanted to become Catholic. Her
parents allowed them to convert, but they were still required to the Baptist churches with their parents.
Their brother, Lawrence, later became Catholic as well while in college. Gwendolyn married William Booker
and became stepmother to Elbert.
After earning a Master’s degree, Gwendolyn became a teacher in the Bibb County Public School System.
She worked in several schools in the area, including Northeast High School, where she was also a coach for
cheerleading, track, and basketball. Gwendolyn retired from education after 34, but continues to be active
in the church community. Along with her activity in the church, Mrs. Booker is a member of the Council of
Catholic Women and the Knights of Peter Claver Ladies Auxiliary.
Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA and a member of the
Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
Katy Lockard is the Director of Archives & Records Management for the Catholic Diocese of Savannah.
v
�Interview Transcript
KLockard Okay, so to start out, do you want to tell us your full name —
GBooker Okay —
KLockard — and spell it for us, please?
GBooker Okay, and spell it?
KLockard Yes, ma’am.
GBooker Okay, it’s Gwendolyn Stroud Booker. G-W-E-N-D-O-L-Y-N, Stroud, S-T-R-O-U-D,
Booker, B-O-O-K-E-R.
KLockard Thank you.
BMiddlebrooks Okay, Gwen, thank you for agreeing to interview. We want you to go back in
history and try to tell us what you remember about your early days here at St. Peter Claver
Church and School?
GBooker Okay. All right, I’ll start with when I first came here. I used to go to the kindergarten in
the neighborhood, and every morning, about lunchtime, or naptime, I would slip away. Just get
out of the lady’s [00:01:00] kindergarten, walk home to get into my own bed. And then the lady
would eventually call and ask “Did Gwendolyn come home?” She [Mrs. Booker’s mother] would
say “Yeah, she’s here. So, I thought school was out.” So my mother decided that she didn’t
want to have to look for me every day, and she decided she was going to bring me over here to
St. Peter Claver. I was about 4 years old and we came over to St. Peter Claver. And I couldn’t
walk home because I was [lived] across the river. So, that’s how I first got to St. Peter Claver.
That was in January, and I was here from then on.
BMiddlebrooks Okay, so when did you come into the church?
GBooker I joined the church in — I was about [00:02:00] seven, eight, nine — about nine years
old, but I’m not sure what year that was. But I used to practice church every day. And so, my
mother said “Why are you always practicing church?” I would always repeat what had gone on
in church. And I said “Because I like it and it sounds good.” And so, she said, “Well, if you join
that church, you’re still going to have to go to church with me every Sunday.” So I said, “Okay.”
So then, she agreed to let us join — me and my sister.
BMiddlebrooks So you and your sister were the first ones in your family?
GBooker To be Catholic—
BMiddlebrooks Are you the only ones in your family?
GBooker No, I have a brother that’s Catholic.
1
�BMiddlebrooks So the three of you all became Catholics without your parents.
GBooker Yes, raised in a Baptist [home].
BMiddlebrooks Okay. What kind of activities do you remember having at St. Peter Claver
School?
GBooker Okay. First thing, we had a nun 1 [00:03:00]. Her name of Sister Louis Marie. 2 And we
had a CYO organization, which was called Catholic Youth Organization. 3 And she [Sister Louis
Marie] was sort of like over it, not really over if, but she was always the one that would come to
give us some kind of activity. Our— whatever you call it, advisor, I guess— was David Hill. And
we would always— The nun [Sister Louis Marie] was mainly— I guess she was Irish, and she
decided that she wanted to teach us how to do an Irish jig. So we learned how to do this little
Irish jig. And then Mr. Hill would always have some other activities. So it was really sort of like
an activity that we had on Sundays for the teenagers or for the— well, I wouldn’t say teenagers
— [00:04:00] preteens because I think it was probably from ten years old to maybe seventeen
[years old]. And we would do this on Sunday and then the priest would always ask us if there
was anything else we wanted to do. And he would finance whatever we wanted to do. So that
was one of the activities. And then, I remember one time, they organized a drum and bugle
corps. And I guess at that time, I was probably in the fourth grade. And I was listening to some
other folks say they had one here before then, but it didn’t include the girls. And so then the
girls blew the trumpets—not trumpets, I’m sorry— it was the bugle. We had a bugle and the
boys mostly did the drumming. And the funnest thing about it was that we would wear white
[00:05:00] skirts with pleats, and we had a cape that was blue, and the inside of the cape was
gold. So half of the cape would turn back, and so you could see the gold. And over here
[indicating where on the cape] we had “SPC.” And we had a funny-looking hat.
BMiddlebrooks Okay, Gwen, tell us about the restrooms and lunches that you all had.
The term “nuns” is commonly mistaken for “sisters”. Nuns are cloistered religious women who physically set
themselves apart from the world, and whose “work” for the Church is prayer. A “sister” lives an apostolic life
(working and usually living in the community). They are the ones you would see more often at schools and
parishes. It is rare to see a nun anywhere but her cloister. It is common, but technically incorrect, among the older
generations to refer to all religious women as “nuns.” However, those who are living out the vocation of “nun” get
really annoyed when an apostolic religious woman is called “nun.” Both also use the term “Sister.”
1
Sr. Louis Marie Stack, S.B.S. was born Bernadette Monica Stack on February 11, 1923 to Bernard J. and Josephine
V. Madden Stack in Dundalk, County Louth, Ireland. She served at St. Peter Claver School from 1954-1959 and
1974-1977. At some point, likely following Vatican II in 1965, she changed her name back to her baptismal name
and was referred to as Sr. Mary Bernadette Stack, S.B.S. She died on March 30, 2007, aged 84, at the Sisters of the
Blessed Sacrament Motherhouse in Bensalem, PA and is buried in the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament Cemetery in
the same city.
2
3
Catholic Youth Organization is a youth program run at the diocese level to help children and teenagers with their
recreational, social, and spiritual needs. The first CYO was founded in 1930 in Chicago.
2
�GBooker Okay, all right we did not have— you had to bring your lunch. We had a lunchroom,
but you had to bring your lunch. Everybody would go to the lunchroom to eat their lunch. And
we didn’t have any chairs; we had to stand up at the table. It wasn’t really a table, it was a
counter. And I guess they had probably about six or seven candles and you stood at the counter
to eat your lunch. On Fridays, that was the day your brought your money. We had hot dogs, or
if it was Lent 4 time, it was [00:06:00] tuna fish sandwich, but it was in a hot dog bun.
BMiddlebrooks and KLockard [Laughs]
GBooker And it cost us 15 cents. 5
BMiddlebrooks Okay. The equipment on the grounds, at that time, do you remember?
GBooker Uh huh, we had a jungle gym. We had a seesaw. We had a swing. And we played a lot
of hopscotch. Uh, ball—any kind of ball, it didn’t matter. And you know, if you didn’t want to do
any of those things, then you did the playground equipment. Now the playground equipment
was made out of steel, hard steel, and the jungle gym, if you turned it loose, somebody was
bound to get hit in the head. But you knew to duck, you know. And our playground was grass.
We didn’t have cement or anything, it was dirt and grass. And the [00:07:00] bathroom was
outside. We had a bathroom— well, I guess you wouldn’t call it a bathroom— a toilet house.
One side was for girls; one side was for boys. And I think I can remember, we had five little stalls
inside. And you had a faucet to wash your hands, but there was never hot water; it was always
cold water.
BMiddlebrooks And your school supplies. You said you got those—
GBooker Okay, yeah. You could get the school supplies at the office, if you didn’t bring your
own supplies. One day out of the week, they would sell school supplies. I was one of those folks
that went from room to room to sell the supplies. And we also, on that same day, you had a
little magazine, I can’t remember what the magazine was called, but it was some kind of little
magazine that if you wanted one of those, you could get those on Fridays also. And they cost a
quarter.
BMiddlebrooks Now, religious classes. Now [00:08:00] we have religion every day, but during
that time, you all had religion classes once a—
GBooker Unh-uh. We had ours everyday.
BMiddlebrooks Everyday. And it was taught by a priest?
During Lent (the period between Ash Wednesday and Good Friday), Catholics abstain from eating meat from land
animals on Fridays. Fish is acceptable.
4
5
The minimum wage during that time was about $1.20 per hour. A McDonald’s hamburger cost 15 cents and a
restaurant meal cost an average of 30 cents.
3
�GBooker No, it was taught by the nun. The priest came once per week. And on that day was his
day to teach, but we had religion every day.
BMiddlebrooks Okay. Tell us about the theater you were in.
GBooker Okay. Now when I was in the fifth grade, we all went to Atlanta. We had to wear our
uniforms, which in my days, we wore blue skirts—navy blue skirts with pleats, and a blue
blouse that had a Peter Pan collar.6 And we also had a beanie. That’s what they called it, a little
beanie. And the nuns decided we were going to Atlanta, and I think we were supposed to be
going to the zoo. We had a train in Macon called the [00:09:00] Nancy Hank 7. So we got on the
train. I don’t know how we got to the station, but we got on the train and we went to Atlanta.
Okay, if you forgot— some of us forgot to go to the bathroom on the train. So when we got to
the station, thinking that maybe you can go to the bathroom at the station, you could not go.
They didn’t even have a sign that says “Whites Only” or “Colored Only.” It was just that that
group— or the group of us could not go to the bathroom. So one of the nuns called over to
Blessed Sacrament 8 and asked them if there was any way that they could bring the children
over there to use the bathroom. So they had a bus. They came and got us on the bus, we went
to the bathroom, and then we went on to where we were supposed to be going. Everybody
thought that was kind of [00:10:00] ba— well, you know, back in the day, young folks didn’t
know what was going on. But the old folks knew what was going on. So we really didn’t know
we couldn’t use the bathroom, as such, because she said, the nun said “Okay, y’all we got to
wait on the bus, y’all just have to hold it a minute.” So we waiting on the bus to come get us.
But they never told us that we couldn’t use the bathroom. I assumed that’s what happened. At
least, I knew that’s what happened.
BMiddlebrooks Okay. Now tell me about your first memories of coming into the church, once
you joined. [Unintelligible]
GBooker Um-hm. No, I started coming before then [before joining the church].
BMiddlebrooks Okay, you started coming before that time.
GBooker Yes, my mother would bring us to church at— we came on Sundays at seven thirty.
That’s what time mass was on Sunday. Uh, they had a seven thirty and ten o’clock [00:11:00]
mass, but we had to come at seven thirty because my mother was a pianist and she played at a
lot of churches. So, she would bring us here, then come back and pick us up. Then we had to go
6
Named after Maude Adam’s role as Peter Pan in 1905, the collar is a flat fold that circles the neck and lies flat on
the torso.
The Nancy Hanks II passenger train, one of Georgia Central Railroad’s trains, ran from Savannah to Atlanta from
1947 to 1971 when Georgia’s intercity passenger rails miles became part of the Amtrak system. For more
information see https://www.statesboroherald.com/local/two-trains-they-called-nancy-hanks/
7
Construction on Most Blessed Sacrament started in 1957, and the School opened in 1965. See
http://mostblessedsacrament.com/ParishHistory.htm for more information.
8
4
�to the other churches. And we would stay in church from seven thirty in the morning until
about six o’clock at night. And during that time too, when I became older, we wanted to get
home by seven o’clock because if you were dating, the boy couldn’t come to see you after
seven o’clock. So we [Mrs. Booker and her siblings] would just be there watching to see what
time it was so we could make sure we get out and get home in time to have company. Ain’t it
funny! [Laughs.] But that was the life.
BMiddlebrooks [Laughs] Basically.
GBooker Ok, but let me tell you about my—after I got into church. I could not—the Bishop
[00:12:00] only came at certain times. I think that’s the same way it is now. But we joined at a
time where in order to be confirmed, it was too late for confirmation 9. We didn’t have to do all
those different classes, like they do now. What actually happened, I think we probably had to
learn something because they had told us that the Bishop would question you when you get
ready to become confirmed. So Father—I believe it was Father Galvin 10—made arrangements
for us to go to Warner Robins to be confirmed. We got confirmed at Sacred Heart 11 because we
were too late for the confirmation here [at St. Peter Claver].
BMiddlebrooks You were still confirmed in the eighth grade though, is that correct?
GBooker Um-hm.
BMiddlebrooks And you took your first communion around that time?
GBooker No, I think it was about seventh grade, sixth grade, or something [00:13:00] like that.
BMiddlebrooks Okay, when did you make first communion? Because I know they changed
that—
GBooker As soon as we got baptized. 12
BMiddlebrooks Okay.
For more information on Catholic Confirmation see https://diosav.org/resources/sacraments-ofinitiation/confirmation/confirmation-the-sacrament-of-the-holy-spirit
9
10
Rev. John Gavin served as pastor at St. Peter Claver Parish from 1957 to 1970, when he retired. Following his
retirement, he remained in residence at St. Peter Claver until his death in July 1980.
The first mass held at Sacred Heart was in 1945; today it serves over 4,000 people and over 1,500 families. See
https://www.sacredheartwr.org/65 for more information.
11
First communion was allowed around age 14 during the nineteenth century. However, in 1910 Pope Pius X
decreed the age be lowered to seven. Thus, children over seven can immediately receive communion after
baptism. Youth from ages seven to seventeen may be encouraged to receive confirmation first, and adult converts
may be required to conduct confession before their first communion. See
https://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10quam.htm for more information.
12
5
�GBooker Uh huh, we did our first communion then.
BMiddlebooks Okay, because I know they’ve changed that [unintelligible].
GBooker Uh-huh, yeah because if you were very, very small, like six or seven years old, they
had the big thing with the white veils and everything. But if you were a little older, you didn’t
necessarily have to go through that First Communion [ceremony]. You just got your first
communion after your baptism.
BMiddlebrooks Okay. Thank you so much for interviewing with us today.
[End of interview]
6
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Oral History Interviews
Subject
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Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Interviewed subjects share their experiences as being Black and Catholic, or serving the Black Catholic community, in South Georgia.
Creator
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Office of Archives and Records
Publisher
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Diocese of Savannah
Date
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December 1, 2020
Contributor
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James C. Wright
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Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Language
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English
Oral History
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Original Format
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wav file, audio only
Interviewer
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Bettye Middlebrook and Kathryn Lockard
Interviewee
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Gwendolyn Booker
Location
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St. Peter Claver Parish
Duration
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13 minutes, 43 seconds
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one-minute interverals
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Gwendolyn Stroud Booker, July 24, 2019, St. Peter Claver Church, Macon, GA
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Gwendolyn Stroud Booker discusses her years as a child at St. Peter Claver School, converting to Catholicism, and experiences with segregation.
Gwendolyn Stroud Booker, 75, was born in 1944 to Jesse and Otelia Stroud, who were Baptist. Gwendolyn was one of seven children, who also included Alvin, Wilford, Marilyn, Lawrence, Elise, Vernetha Stroud. Gwendolyn and her sister, Vernetha, attended St. Peter Claver School and wanted to become Catholic. Her parents allowed them to convert, but they were still required to the Baptist churches with their parents. Their brother, Lawrence, later became Catholic as well while in college. Gwendolyn married William Booker and became stepmother to Elbert.
After earning a Master’s degree, Gwendolyn became a teacher in the Bibb County Public School System. She worked in several schools in the area, including Northeast High School, where she was also a coach for cheerleading, track, and basketball. Gwendolyn retired from education after 34, but continues to be active in the church community. Along with her activity in the church, Mrs. Booker is a member of the Council of Catholic Women and the Knights of Peter Claver Ladies Auxiliary.
Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA, and a member of the Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
Katy Lockard is the Director of Archives & Records Management for the Catholic Diocese of Savannah.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Office of Archives and Records, Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
July 24, 2019
Contributor
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James C. Wright; Stephanie M. Braddy
Rights
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Archives & Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Copyright 2019.
This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in the US copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that allowed by fair use requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
Language
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English
Source
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<h2><a href="https://ohms.libs.uga.edu/viewer.php?cachefile=dlg/ohdiosav/booker-gwendolyn-stroud-2019-07-24-spcpm.xml" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><em>Click Here for Interview Audio and Transcript Index</em></a></h2>
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f1e9967d3de954f15c34153aa31b0c9a
PDF Text
Text
Oral Memoirs
of
Monroe Abram
St. Peter Claver, Macon
An Interview
Conducted by
Bettye Middlebrooks &
Katy Lockard
on
July 24, 2019
Accession: 20190724.01
Community Elders, Black Catholic Oral History Project
Archives & Records Management Department,
Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Copyright 2019
�This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute
copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in
the US copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that
allowed by fair use requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
�Table of Contents
General Policy and Purposes......................................................................................... iv
Oral History Procedure ................................................................................................. iv
Legal Status ................................................................................................................... iv
Interview History ............................................................................................................v
Collection/Project Detail ................................................................................................v
Interview Transcript, 7/24/2019 ................................................................................... 1
�General Policies and Procedures
A member of the Oral History Association, the Archives & Records Management Department of
the Catholic Diocese of Savannah (A&R) supports and embodies the goals, guidelines, and
standards of archival quality prescribed by the national professional association to ensure longterm preservation of memoirs. It is the practice of A&R to select narrators whose recollections, as
participants or eyewitnesses, are relevant to the department’s chosen research topics. Their
recorded memoirs provide links between the immediate past and the present in a very human
way. A scholarly but relaxed and conversational atmosphere exists during the interview. To
encourage completely candid recollections, the narrator is asked to regard the oral history memoir
as a highly personal journal. The transcribed historical document, which the finished memoir
becomes, is the raw material used by historians and professional scholars.
In the interest of preserving these memories for future use, the narrator and interviewer must sign
a deed of gift agreement. Generally, this releases their portions of the interview to the oral history
archives of Catholic Diocese of Savannah for historical and academic research and public
dissemination. The narrator may also choose to restrict the memoir by limiting access or by sealing
the memoir until a specified date.
Memoir Procedure
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
Initial contact with the narrator.
Arrangements made for interview(s).
Recording of interview(s).
Transcribing of recording(s) in the A&R office.
Audit-checking and editing of transcript(s) in the A&R office. Abstract(s) created.
Review of transcript(s) by interviewer.
Review of transcript(s) by narrator. Due to edits requested, transcript(s) may not match
audio recording(s) exactly.
8. Upload of draft transcript(s) and recording(s) to A&R’s web portal.
9. Presentation of bound copy of completed memoir to the interviewee.
Legal Status
Scholarly use of the recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) with Monroe Abram is
unrestricted. The deed of gift agreement was signed on November 9, 2020.
iv
�Interview History
The recording(s) and transcript(s) of the interview(s) were processed in the offices of the Archives
& Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Savannah, Georgia.
Interviewer:
Bettye Middlebrooks
Transcriber:
Trint.com
Editor:
Katy Lockard
Final editor:
Stephanie Braddy
Collection/Project Detail
The Diocese of Savannah is collecting oral histories from members of the Black Catholic
community to fill in gaps in the documentation.
Monroe Abram, 88, was born in Macon, GA to Helen and Monroe Abram, one of three children,
including Bernard and Bernadine. Growing up in Macon, he was an active member of St. Peter
Claver Parish, attending the Catholic grammar school from first grade to eighth grade. He
attended and graduated from [Old] Ballard High School (later named Ballard-Hudson Senior High
School) in Macon, GA. He went on to attend college in New York City, NY. He worked the Paulist
Fathers of NY while he was in college. Following graduation, Monroe went to work at Robins Air
Force Base as an alcohol and drug counselor. He retired from Robins AFB after 30 years.
Monroe was married twice. He and his first wife, Avis, had one son, Monroe Abrams, Jr. who also
graduated from St Peter Claver School and Mount de Sales Academy. Monroe, Jr., his wife and
their four children live in Tennessee. Sometime after the death of his first wife, Monroe married a
second time. He and his wife, Joan, who served for a number of years as principal of St. Peter
Claver School, moved to Warner Robins, GA. Sadly, Joan passed away in August of 2020. The
couple had been married for 45 years.
Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA and a member
of the Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
Katy Lockard is the Director of Archives & Records Management for the Catholic Diocese of
Savannah.
v
�Interview Transcript
KLockard OK perfect. Okay. So to start out we just need you to say your name.
MAbram Yeah. Name is Monroe Abram.
KLockard Yes, and Mr. Abram can you spell your name for us?
MAbram M-O-N-R-O-E, last name Abram A-B-R-A-M
Klockard Thank you.
BMiddlebrooks Okay Monroe, we're interviewing you now for Black History. We are trying to
recapture some of the history that was lost long ago and we have the history of the church and
school, but we wanted the history from the parishioners to tell their memories of church and
school here at St. Peter Claver.
MAbram Um-hm.
BMiddlebrooks So you want to begin with one of your earliest memories?
MAbram I think I just stated one. I told this room we should be the baptismal room just however I
was baptized in this room right here, see where we at now. [00:01:00] And my son, he was also
baptized here too. In fact, we had the same godparents, you know. So, in 1933 is when I came into
the church, you know. This is all to bring back so many, many memories up there. I was altar boy
there.
MAbram The priest who was there then was a German priest, Father Prendergast 1, he the one
taught me and two other fellows how to do the Latin 2 for the mass, see. During those days the
priest's back was to the people; he wasn't facing the people like now. Another priests that stayed
with us for a long time was Father McKeever 3, that stayed here for quite a few years and we were
the regular altar boys and we would be at every [00:02:00] Sunday mass, see. Every mass.
MAbram And I remember at the time that usually wasn't a law but it was just the practice that
women [would] sit on one side and the men on the other one, see. And my mother, I could
remember her sitting right in one of the pews back here now. She used to get up early in the
morning she used to make that six o'clock mass, six thirty mass, where she'd get back home to fix
breakfast for us, so we could come to mass. I can remember now, every lady that you'd see in
here had their head covered, and we were very faithful.
According to Kenedy’s Official Catholic Directory, Rev. John Prendergast, SMA served as pastor of St. Peter Claver
Parish from 1942 to 1946.
1
Mass was spoken in Latin until after the Second Vatican Council (1962-1965) in many Catholic Churches in the
country. At St. Peter Claver, mass changed to the vernacular language (English) on August 31, 1964.
2
According to Kenedy’s Official Catholic Directory, Rev. Michael J. McKeever, SMA served as assistant pastor of St.
Peter Claver Parish from 1945 to 1946. After his time in Macon, he was assigned as pastor to Our Lady of Lourdes
Parish in Atlanta, where he served until 1957.
3
1
�MAbram The thing that I remember most about this church, it was a priest by the name of Father
Howard 4, was a black priest, SVD order 5, and this place never been so packed with Black, nonCatholics. You know, because no one had seen a black [00:03:00] priest before! And he was here
for a whole week giving that mission 6. And speaking of missions, I remember a time where this
church wasn't a parish, it was a mission 7 and someone else took care of us, because we weren't
able to take care of it. But anyway, Father Howard put on the mission there for a whole week,
preached every week. And then like on Sundays they had a big high mass, what we call a high mass
and low mass 8, you know. He was the celebrant, and way back then they had the celebrant, and
you had a deacon and you had the sub-deacon, see, and the deacon and sub-deacon almost like
waited on him like the altar boys do to the priest now, see.
MAbram And they9 confessed they had never seen nothing like that before you know. And I
remember Sunday, that Sunday morning when everything ended, you know that we had a big
breakfast for everyone, and as one would, we use to meet [00:04:00] when we was in the yard, we
said, "It's Deo Gratias," 10 you know, whatever that meant back then, but that's the way we used to
greet one another you know.
MAbram But he [Father Howard] kind of got myself two others kind of shook up. [He] wanted to
know, did we want to come down to Bay St. Louis. 11 See, that's the only place that a Black priest
could go back then those days, and did we want to come down? So we all went to eighth grade
and we wanted to become priest[s], but that didn't last too long, you know.
Information has not been located regarding Father Howard, however, a flier for a parish mission given by Rev.
Thaddeus C. Boucree, SVD was found in the Chancery Correspondence Files from St. Peter Claver. According to the
biographical information, Fr. Boucree was born in New Orleans, LA and attended seminary at Bay St. Louis, MS in the
fall of 1939. He became a member of the Society of Divine Word (SVD) in 1945 and was ordained a priest in 1952. He
went on to serve at parishes in South West Louisiana, Mississippi, and Arkansas. While in residence as St. Francis de
Sales Church in Louisiana in 1978, he conducted a parish mission September 9 through 13 at St. Peter Claver in Macon.
4
5 Society of Divine Word is an order of religious men founded in 1875 by St. Arnold Janssen and is one of the largest
Roman Catholic order that focuses on missionary work. For more information: https://www.divineword.org/
Missions are usually a series of talks, masses, teachings, etc. given by a visiting priest or knowledgeable person on
the faith. In the 1940’s and 50’s, Southern Province members were known to give weeklong missions to Black Catholic
parishes in the South. While they were most active in the Gulf Region and at rural parishes, it would fit that Fr.
Howard, SVD would have come to Macon.
6
“Mission” referred to in this case is a term used to distinguish the status of a church in the Catholic faith which is
given certain privileges (such as the celebration of specific sacraments) based on that status. A mission is subordinate,
and usually run by, a parish.
7
In the Pre-Vatican II Catholic tradition, a low mass was less formal than a high mass, which was usually sung. All
prayers and music were in Latin.
8
This was prior to 1962, so it was not common for a White person to be assisting a person of Color during mass in the
South.
9
10
Latin. Translates to, “Thanks be to God”.
St. Augustine Seminary, began by the SVDs in 1920, it was the first seminary to train Black men for religious life. For
more information: http://www.svdsouth.com/history.html
11
2
�MAbram [I] Graduat[ed] from the school 12 over there. See, my mother started school part of the
time.
MAbram [Pause]
MAbram We only had four boys when I graduated from school there, you know, just four boys,
maybe three girls, that was still in there, you know and [00:05:00] we only had one lay teacher
there, which I think you and I spoke about. She was a fixture in the place named Mary Davis.13 She
did the kindergarten all of these years and I went from the kindergarten right on up to the eighth
grade to the school here. It was one of the fondest memories I can remember.
MAbram Of course, Father Galvin 14 he came here and he stayed for years too, you know. And
Father Gavin is the one who buried my father and my grandmother. And, most of my family, a lot
of them was baptized from birth, but a lot of people was baptized on their death bed. They was
called extreme unction back there during that time. 15 And every time before, like before my daddy
died, he was baptized. [00:06:00] My mother's mother was baptized. My grandmother on my
father's side, she was a convert. She married someone who was a Catholic, a very faithful man,
named Mr. Thomas, then she became Catholic [and] she was buried here. She was a member of an
old congregational church that no longer exists over there on Madison Street here in Macon.
MAbram I left here and I went down to Old Ballard. 16 But this was the fixtures of the place. The
priest use to take us to Atlanta, they had a parish up in Atlanta, they use to say mass up there, so
we made acquainted with the altar boys up there and altar boys here.
BMiddlebrooks Who brought Catholicism to you all?
MAbram Well the Pattersons 17 was very, very old time faithful members here and see, [00:07:00]
before come Patterson, it was Hunt. It was a man come from Virginia named Tom Hunt. He was
what they called the “church warden” in those days. They put out to fans and they made ice water
and made all of that sort of stuff and he brought it back. And then, Marion Patterson, which is the
mother of Jessemme (sp?) and Mary Patterson, who has passed away. There used to be a Catholic
12
Monroe attended St. Peter Claver Grammar School.
Mrs. Mary Davis was a kindergarten teacher at St. Peter Claver School for many years during the 1950s, 1960s and
early 1970s, however her exact arrival and retirement dates are unknown. She was small in stature but had a big heart
and a way with children. She was well known throughout the community because of her reputation at the school. Mrs.
Davis was married to Dan Davis who died young due to complications from surgery. While the couple had no children
of their own, Mrs. Davis raised her niece and nephew, Mildred and Carl Henderson.
13
Rev. John Gavin served as pastor at St. Peter Claver Parish from 1957 to 1970, when he retired. Following his
retirement, he remained in residence at St. Peter Claver until his death in July 1980.
14
15
Extreme unction is presently referred to as “Anointing of the Sick.”
16
Ballard High School was established in 1949 and was Macon’s only school for African Americans in grades 9-12 until
1970. In 1970, the same year that schools integrated, several schools merged and Ballard High School became Ballard
Hudson Senior High School. Notable alumni include Otis Redding and “Little Richard” Penniman. The high school has
since closed and a middle school of the same name opened in its place in January 2008. For more information:
https://georgiahistory.com/ghmi_marker_updated/ballard-hudson-senior-high-school/
17
The Patterson family was active in SPC Parish as early as 1935.
3
�place out here, Saint Stanislaus Circle 18, the place still existed and I think that they had some
nuns19 or something that use to come over here to the school.
MAbram Now I don't know what come first, the school or the church. But I should know because I
went to the canonization of Mother Drexel, 20 and I don't know whether seventy five [00:08:00] or
a hundred years it will be today. But I would say to them that there's no way in the world that we
would've been able to afford our education because we just didn't have the money to pay for it
like that and people were coming in and the nuns21 were just something else. They’d see you
come to school and your clothes didn’t look too good, kind of nasty or dirty. They'd put new
clothes on you to send you back and then they were always giving money to the people, to the
families, you know. And you got to remember too, all of these people coming through here wasn’t
Catholic, they were non-Catholic. But I remember the nuns. There were people who give them
donations, and they would take it, and turn round and give it to us.
BMiddlebrooks Now when you were in elementary school here, you started in kindergarten—
MAbram Kindergarten, yeah.
BMiddlebrooks —and graduated? So what kind of activities did you all have?
MAbram Well, we had very little. We had the yard out there. We weren’t [00:09:00] competing
against anyone. We had a volleyball thing and then that was it. But I remember the day, see L.H.
Williams 22 used to be right down here, four or five blocks down below. Well they changed the
time of the calendar, of the school up here getting out and the time they get out because we were
getting in such big fights going on. So, they changed the time. [Laughs] So I think we was getting
out later than they were, you know.
BMiddlebrooks And did you have a band?
MAbram No we didn't have no kind of band.
BMiddlebrooks And a choir?
18
St. Stanislaus College, originally named Pio Nono College, was built in 1873 by Right Rev. William H. Gross, C.SS.R.,
fifth Bishop of Savannah, to serve as a diocesan seminary. In 1883, the Jesuit community acquired the college for use
as a Jesuit seminary. The college was open until its burned down in November 1921. After St. Stanislaus College
burned down, the Jesuit community decided not to rebuild and the land was sold to the city in 1926 to build a new
community on what became known as Stanislaus Circle.
19
St. Stanislaus College housed both priests and nuns on the 42-acre property.
Mother Katherine Drexel founded the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament in Philadelphia, PA for the purpose of
offering education to Native Americans and African-Americans. This included establishing new schools, such as Saint
Peter Claver School in 1888. She was canonized a Saint in 2000 by Pope John Paul II. For more information:
https://www.katharinedrexel.org/st_katharine_drexel_overview/
20
St. Katharine Drexel founded St. Peter Claver School in 1903 and the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament (S.B.S.) came
to Macon in 1914 to staff the school. The Sisters retained an active role in administering the school until they turned
the administration over to The Daughters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul in 1999.
21
Historic L.H. Williams Elementary School was built in 1905 and is a historically Black school, whose alumni include
notable names such as “Little Richard” Penniman, Vietnam War hero Rodney Davis, and soul music great Otis Redding.
22
4
�MAbram No, no, the choir that we had here was a lady named Essie Hutchings. 23 Her husband is
co-owner of Hutchings Funeral Homes. She was the organist here. And they had another fellow
[child] that sang in the choir named Bernard Rogers. [As an adult] He ran a shoe shop downtown
on Broadway next door to the Douglass Theater. [00:10:00] Bernard Rogers, I think it was in the
thirties when he went to Saint Emma's, the military's school in Virginia.24 So then that's how my
brother got to go to this school too. But Essie Hutchings, she was the organist here for years and
years until she died. Now we did have some kind of choir, because she [Mrs. Essie Hutchings]
would come over to the school and play the piano for that. And you know my sister, they always
like having my sister sing. It was two songs they don't sing today in church, “O Salutaris” and
“Tantum Ergo.” She would sing them. And I know during the Christmas-time, when the people use
to have the parties at the different stores down there [downtown], [00:11:00] they'd get my
daddy to bring my sister down there, Bernadine, 25 to sing those songs, Tantum Ergo and O
Salutaris.
MAbram It was all Latin songs back then. Just like all the Latin that we were learning for serving
mass and singing. We had a book, on one side would have the Latin and the other side have the
English, but we really didn't know what it meant. We really did know what it meant. But this time I
expect you might see some of those books around now, the Latin on one side. Just like at midnight
mass 26, this place was packed. And they had non-Catholics come here. Everybody was looking for
the midnight mass. It was a big thing. Everybody would show and that went on for a long time,
long time. I don't know whether I have it today or not, but they [00:12:00] had a special service for
that at that time.
BMiddlebrooks Now you mentioned to me before that a lot of people in the neighborhood were
not Catholic.
MAbram Not Catholic.
BMiddlebrooks But the priests here took care of everybody in the community.
MAbram Yeah.
23 Essie Hutchings was born on November 23, 1894 to Ida Bond and Charlie Williams. It is unknown whether Mrs.
Hutchings grew up Catholic or converted later in life, but at some point she joined St. Peter Claver as was their
musician for many years. Essie was married to William (Willie) Pope Hutchings of Hutchings Funeral Home in Macon
while Essie was a homemaker and active in the church community. She died on September 22, 1961 at age 66 and is
buried in the Oakridge section of Rose Hill Cemetery on the Hutchings family plot.
Originally a plantation, Colonel and Mrs. Edward de Vaux Morrell of Philadelphia purchased the property in
Powhatan, VA in 1893 to establish a school for African-American youth. St. Emma’s Industrial and Agricultural Institute
opened in 1895 and the curriculum emphasized practical skills such as canning, farming, equipment repair, accounting
and management. Later, it was reestablished as the St. Emma Military School. Following desegregation, the school’s
enrollment rapidly reclined and it closed in 1972. For more information: http://places.afrovirginia.org/items/show/39
24
Bernadine Abram was born on November 4, 1935, the younger sister of Monroe. Along with her siblings, she
attended St. Peter Claver School and Mount de Sales Academy. In addition to singing in the church choir, Bernadine
was also a member of the Council of Catholic Women, Associates of the Sisters of the Blessed Sacrament, Altar
Society, a Lector and Eucharistic Minister, and the leader of daily morning prayer. She married Earnest Bailey and they
had two children, Christopher and Helen. Bernadine died on February 5, 2005.
25
26
Midnight mass is celebrated as the Christmas Vigil Mass at midnight on December 24th.
5
�BMiddlebrooks Especially when they were sick or dying.
MAbram Oh yeah. Oh yeah, well you know when they got sick. Mostly they took him when they
was really running short something to live on like clothes, money and rent and all of that sort of
stuff. Didn’t too many of them came here to be baptized because you've got to remember back
then, like today, the predominant Blacks were all Protestant. So quite naturally, if we did it [were
baptized], would be a lot of hell raised if they come and begin to get buried in the Catholic Church!
MAbram Well back in them days, there use to be an altar rail go[ing] cross that front of [the altar].
Well that altar rail, that means that if [00:13:00] you married a non-Catholic you couldn't go inside
the altar rail to the sanctuary. 27 Well when my mother and father got married, they married them
over in the priest's house. So from the priest's house it got better that they’d let you come into the
church [to get married], but you couldn't go inside sanctuary. You had to stay outside the altar rail.
Later on, they started letting you come into the sanctuary to have your marriage and then, if you
had a Protestant minister, you could bring them along with you so the times just change, religion
changed since then.28
KLockard Were your parents - one was Catholic and one was not?
MAbram Yeah. My mother was Catholic. My mother became Catholic through some of the kin
people like I was telling you, old man Tom Hunt. She came through [them] and that's how she
became [Catholic]. And she brought all us up [Catholic]. I had a brother and sister too [00:14:00]
that were Catholic.
BMiddlebrooks And you had a youth organization too?
MAbram Yeah, yeah. [The] CYO. 29 It was a priest by the name of Father Canon.30 He started that
need. He's the guy [that] started having some things [activities] for CYO. Now, come to remember
some years back, the priest rented a film to show movies here on Sunday night. And everybody
[attended], you know, because there wasn’t no movies, or nowhere else to go to on Sunday night.
And I think it was a nickel a piece to go into the movie. So we would come here on Sunday night to
go to the movie.
BMiddlebrooks Earlier you mentioned that men and women sat on opposite sides of the church.
MAbram Yes.
Arguments that altar rails separated a priest from his congregation and were unnecessary to guard the sanctuary
were a point of dispute at Vatican II. Since 1965, the Church has stopped installing altar rails in new parishes and
recommends parishes consider taking out their altar rails, but does not require it.
27
The Second Vatican Council (1962-65) made many changes to worship services, such as speaking in English versus
Latin.
28
Catholic Youth Organization is a youth program run at the diocese level to help children and teenagers with their
recreational, social, and spiritual needs. The first CYO was founded in 1930 in Chicago.
29
According to According to Kenedy’s Official Catholic Directory, Rev. Daniel J. Cannon served at St. Peter Claver
Parish from 1946-47.
30
6
�BMiddlebrooks And you were the first one I've ever heard say that. So since then though, talking
to other people, I found out that they remember when men and women sat on opposite sides.
MAbram [00:15:00] Yes.
BMiddlebrooks And then there was a guy that was a convert.
MAbram Um-hm.
BMiddlebrooks And he said the first time he entered a Catholic Church, that's the way they were
seated.
MAbram Um-hm.
BMiddlebrooks Do you remember about what time that was?
MAbram Hm. It had to be back there in the twenties and thirties, see because when I was born,31
it was that way. I remember Mother use to sit right back there and you had faithful people who
would come to say mass and that was their pew. You just didn't sit in their pew! That was their
pew. You know I think [in] some old churches now everybody's got “their” pew.
BMiddlebrooks But you don't know when it changed?
MAbram I think it just gradually changed. It most probably changed in the sixties.
BMiddlebrooks Ok.
MAbram The sixties or maybe the fifties.
BMiddlebrooks After Vatican Two 32 maybe?
MAbram Yeah. Because during that time, when they changed the mass, [00:16:00] the way to
mass was said in English. They stopped saying it in Latin and the priest faced the people.
BMiddlebrooks And all the children sat in front of the church?
MAbram Huh?
BMiddlebrooks Did all the children sit in front?
MAbram Yeah. And I remember times when they [would] bring the kids in, if I'm not mistaken, the
boy sat on one side and the girl sat on the other one. Now they might have been sitting by grades.
I don't know, but I can remember. I noticed back in them days, when someone came in church,
31
32
Monroe was born in 1933.
The Second Vatican Council opened on October 11, 1962 and closed on December 8, 1965.
7
�you just didn't bow down and nod. 33 You use to do nothing. You just sit there. You didn't look back
to say, "hello," and all this other stuff. This handshake of peace 34 is something brand new, to come
to where people got to really talk. We were a really silent church, just silent. And you didn't speak
at all or talk on the inside. You waited until you got outside on the grounds [00:17:00] before you
could speak. You know, you just didn't do that. You didn't sit there and talk like when we meet in
the back of the church [today]. No you didn't do that then.
BMiddlebrooks All right, Monroe. Thank you so much.
MAbram Yeah.
BMiddlebrooks for telling us your story.
MAbram Yeah.
BMiddlebrooks We appreciate it.
MAbram Okay. Good.
[End of Interview]
Monroe refers to a time when talking in the chapel was considered irreverent. As Christians today become more
comfortable with speaking in church, Mr. Abram notices a change in respect for the chapel.
33
During the mass, the priest askes that the congregation “offer each other a sign of peace,” prompting the
congregation to turn to their neighbors in their pews and offer signs of peace, usually in the form of a handshakes or
kisses. Liturgically, the sign of peace is a reflection of Jesus’ teaching on forgiveness prior to offering gifts on the altar
and is a way to unite the community gathered in love and reconciliation prior to receiving the Eucharist.
34
8
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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Oral History Interviews
Subject
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Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Interviewed subjects share their experiences as being Black and Catholic, or serving the Black Catholic community, in South Georgia.
Creator
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Office of Archives and Records
Publisher
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Diocese of Savannah
Date
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December 1, 2020
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James C. Wright
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Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
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English
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tif
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Monroe Abram, July 24, 2019, St. Peter Claver Church, Macon, GA
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Monroe Abram, born in 1933, discusses some of the changes he has seen in St. Peter Claver Parish, as well as some of the priests and parishioners he knew.
Monroe Abram, 88, was born in Macon, GA to Helen and Monroe Abram, one of three children, including Bernard and Bernadine. Growing up in Macon, he was an active member of St. Peter Claver Parish, attending the Catholic grammar school from first grade to eighth grade. He attended and graduated from [Old] Ballard High School (later named Ballard-Hudson Senior High School) in Macon, GA. He went on to attend college in New York City, NY. He worked the Paulist Fathers of NY while he was in college. Following graduation, Monroe went to work at Robins Air Force Base as an alcohol and drug counselor. He retired from Robins AFB after 30 years.
Monroe was married twice. He and his first wife, Avis, had one son, Monroe Abrams, Jr. who also graduated from St Peter Claver School and Mount de Sales Academy. Monroe, Jr., his wife and their four children live in Tennessee. Sometime after the death of his first wife, Monroe married a second time. He and his wife, Joan, who served for a number of years as principal of St. Peter Claver School, moved to Warner Robins, GA. Sadly, Joan passed away in August of 2020. The couple had been married for 45 years.
Bettye Middlebrooks is a longtime member of St. Peter Claver Parish in Macon, GA and a member of the Black Catholic History Advisory Board to the Archives.
Katy Lockard is the Director of Archives & Records Management for the Catholic Diocese of Savannah.
Creator
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Office of Archives and Records, Catholic Diocese of Savannah
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Catholic Diocese of Savannah
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July 24, 2019
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James C. Wright, Stephanie M. Braddy
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Archives & Records Management Department, Catholic Diocese of Savannah, Copyright 2019.
This material is protected by US copyright. Permission to print, reproduce or distribute copyrighted material is subject to the terms and conditions of fair use as prescribed in the US copyright law. Transmission or reproduction of protected items beyond that allowed by fair use requires the written and explicit permission of the copyright owners.
Language
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English
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20190724.01
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<h2><a href="https://ohms.libs.uga.edu/viewer.php?cachefile=dlg/ohdiosav/abram-monroe-2019-07-24-spcpm.xml" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener"><em>Click here for Interview Audio and Transcript Index</em></a></h2>
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Dublin Core
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Title
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St. Peter Claver Church & School, Macon
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Established in 1902 by Jesuits, this Parish was staffed by priests from the Society of African Missions as early as 1913. St. Katherine Drexel also worked here. The parish was dedicated in 1928 and "successfully" integrated in 1968.
Creator
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https://www.spcccmacon.com/contact-us.html
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Diocese of Savannah
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December 1, 2020
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James C. Wright
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Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
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English
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jpeg
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Title
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Interviewees of St. Peter Claver
Subject
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Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Left to right: Alice Marcella Bailey, Gwendolyn Stroud Booker, Monroe Abram, and Carol Cummings.
Creator
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Office of Archives and Records
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Diocese of Savannah
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December 1, 2020
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James C. Wright
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Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
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Dublin Core
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Most Pure Heart of Mary, 1907-2000
Description
An account of the resource
Founded by the SMA fathers to serve African Americans on the west side of Savannah. It had a dedicated school from 1909 until 1975. Most Pure Heart of Mary merged with St. Anthony into Resurrection of Our Lord Parish in 2000.
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
St. Peter Claver Church & School, Macon
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Established in 1902 by Jesuits, this Parish was staffed by priests from the Society of African Missions as early as 1913. St. Katherine Drexel also worked here. The parish was dedicated in 1928 and "successfully" integrated in 1968.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Office of Archives and Records
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
https://www.spcccmacon.com/contact-us.html
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Diocese of Savannah
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
December 1, 2020
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
James C. Wright
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Language
A language of the resource
English
Still Image
A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials.
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
jpeg
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mother Katherine Drexel
Subject
The topic of the resource
Black Catholic Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
Mother Katherine Drexel, 1964
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Office of Archives and Records
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Diocese of Savannah
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
December 1, 2020
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
James C. Wright
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Reserved to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Savannah
Language
A language of the resource
English
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
From The Southern Cross, March 5, 1964. https://gahistoricnewspapers.galileo.usg.edu/lccn/sn22185748/1964-03-05/ed-1/seq-3/